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	<title>Comments on: Celebrating differences, finding common ground</title>
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	<description>Shooting my mouth off since 2006</description>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-82915</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-82915</guid>
		<description>I am not surprised by the attitude of people who quote Naomi Klein and Noam Chomsky to justify their position on Israel. People who buy in to conspiracy theorists&#039; beliefs are typically fanatical and single-minded.

There are a great deal of complexities to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and they can not be properly understood outside the Arab-Muslim/Israeli conflict as a whole. Obviously there has been wrongdoing on both sides and confidence-building on both sides is needed.

Apartheid is a system of racial segregation and disenfranchisement that anyone with any comprehension of the situation in Israel understands simply does not exist there in a way that is comparable to South African Apartheid. Israel is also involved in an armed conflict and the simplistic and uninsightful assessments by &quot;Queers Against Israeli Apartheid&quot; fail to place israel&#039;s actions in that context and relect an ideological bias without basis in fact.

While wrongdoing has occurred on both sides of this matter,  the anti-Israel hate groups&#039; pathological determination to place sole blame on Israel suggests that they have no real interest in a just peace and have other motivation as their primary interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not surprised by the attitude of people who quote Naomi Klein and Noam Chomsky to justify their position on Israel. People who buy in to conspiracy theorists&#8217; beliefs are typically fanatical and single-minded.</p>
<p>There are a great deal of complexities to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and they can not be properly understood outside the Arab-Muslim/Israeli conflict as a whole. Obviously there has been wrongdoing on both sides and confidence-building on both sides is needed.</p>
<p>Apartheid is a system of racial segregation and disenfranchisement that anyone with any comprehension of the situation in Israel understands simply does not exist there in a way that is comparable to South African Apartheid. Israel is also involved in an armed conflict and the simplistic and uninsightful assessments by &#8220;Queers Against Israeli Apartheid&#8221; fail to place israel&#8217;s actions in that context and relect an ideological bias without basis in fact.</p>
<p>While wrongdoing has occurred on both sides of this matter,  the anti-Israel hate groups&#8217; pathological determination to place sole blame on Israel suggests that they have no real interest in a just peace and have other motivation as their primary interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Tindal &#187; Creating a Pride where you belong</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-82825</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Tindal &#187; Creating a Pride where you belong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-82825</guid>
		<description>[...] Pride Toronto made its controversial decision to ban two words from this year&#8217;s parade, I made clear the reasons why I opposed such a move. Since then I have done a lot of listening and a lot of thinking, and, apparently, so has Pride. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pride Toronto made its controversial decision to ban two words from this year&#8217;s parade, I made clear the reasons why I opposed such a move. Since then I have done a lot of listening and a lot of thinking, and, apparently, so has Pride. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daryl Vernon</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78592</link>
		<dc:creator>Daryl Vernon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 01:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78592</guid>
		<description>A commendable attempt, Chris. But why so openly broach a touchy subject that so many with minimal information deign to prate on about? A hard way to generate publicity. And for a Ward campaign? 

Ralph, nice try, too, but no need to quantify: why not drop the &quot;equal&quot;? It can detract from grasping that that majoritarian yearning is weighted more for peace on one side, dignity on the other. That is not necessarily to grade either neither.

And all you apartheid-callers, take a better look at your ongoing own Canada for a real font of apartheid, eg via the Indian Act. A quote from Roger Spielmann&#039;s Anishbnaabe World (&#039;09; not a great book, but he creditably points you to where to learn more in depth): &quot;With the recent move in South Africa towards the dismantling of the system of Apartheid, Canada is the only country left in the western world where such a system still exists.  With its legislated system of separation by race as embodied in The Indian Act, Canada continues to promote a racist (...&quot;legislated system of separation by race.&quot; Am I lying?) and paternalistic relationship with First Nations.&quot; And elsewhere in the book, &quot;In both countries [not Israel, right?] &quot;reserves&quot; were established where indigenous (or homeland) people were strenuously encouraged and even forced to live. I mean, how else could one get the homeland people out of the way of &quot;civilization&quot; (read: land + resources = lots of money)? While reserves no longer exist in South Africa, they still exist in Canada [...]&quot;

Now that seems like quite the digression here, doesn&#039;t it. Not unlike an anti-Israel banner in the parade, wouldn&#039;t you say?

But do note one thing, anyone who would deign to speak loudly from afar little respecting the intense locality of the conflict: the same manipulative forces -- &quot;lots of money&quot; -- that shunted First Nations around here, and other peoples in S. Africa, effect the very same damage in and around Israel. Look a little deeper and see from a bit higher, with humility of distance. 

Honour the localism of the people on the ground. Like parading people, feet on the ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A commendable attempt, Chris. But why so openly broach a touchy subject that so many with minimal information deign to prate on about? A hard way to generate publicity. And for a Ward campaign? </p>
<p>Ralph, nice try, too, but no need to quantify: why not drop the &#8220;equal&#8221;? It can detract from grasping that that majoritarian yearning is weighted more for peace on one side, dignity on the other. That is not necessarily to grade either neither.</p>
<p>And all you apartheid-callers, take a better look at your ongoing own Canada for a real font of apartheid, eg via the Indian Act. A quote from Roger Spielmann&#8217;s Anishbnaabe World (&#8217;09; not a great book, but he creditably points you to where to learn more in depth): &#8220;With the recent move in South Africa towards the dismantling of the system of Apartheid, Canada is the only country left in the western world where such a system still exists.  With its legislated system of separation by race as embodied in The Indian Act, Canada continues to promote a racist (&#8230;&#8221;legislated system of separation by race.&#8221; Am I lying?) and paternalistic relationship with First Nations.&#8221; And elsewhere in the book, &#8220;In both countries [not Israel, right?] &#8220;reserves&#8221; were established where indigenous (or homeland) people were strenuously encouraged and even forced to live. I mean, how else could one get the homeland people out of the way of &#8220;civilization&#8221; (read: land + resources = lots of money)? While reserves no longer exist in South Africa, they still exist in Canada [...]&#8221;</p>
<p>Now that seems like quite the digression here, doesn&#8217;t it. Not unlike an anti-Israel banner in the parade, wouldn&#8217;t you say?</p>
<p>But do note one thing, anyone who would deign to speak loudly from afar little respecting the intense locality of the conflict: the same manipulative forces &#8212; &#8220;lots of money&#8221; &#8212; that shunted First Nations around here, and other peoples in S. Africa, effect the very same damage in and around Israel. Look a little deeper and see from a bit higher, with humility of distance. </p>
<p>Honour the localism of the people on the ground. Like parading people, feet on the ground.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Tindal</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78549</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Tindal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78549</guid>
		<description>@RO I&#039;m referring to the need for our councillor to defend the rights and history of the LGBT community, particularly as it relates to Canada&#039;s historic gay main street, Church. Of course I agree that our councillor must represent the whole ward, and that&#039;s something that&#039;s particularly important to me (having lived in three different parts of the Ward myself). I do not anticipate that defending Queer rights and the history of Pride will conflict with the needs of the rest of the Ward; to the contrary, that&#039;s in all of our interests.

With reference to one of your specific concerns, I can assure you that I have not and will not take any positions that I deem important to my electoral success but bad for the Ward or the city. That is an admittedly tempting idea for some politicians, but it&#039;s always a losing game in the long run. As voters we want genuine priorities and commitments, not pandering transactional politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@RO I&#8217;m referring to the need for our councillor to defend the rights and history of the LGBT community, particularly as it relates to Canada&#8217;s historic gay main street, Church. Of course I agree that our councillor must represent the whole ward, and that&#8217;s something that&#8217;s particularly important to me (having lived in three different parts of the Ward myself). I do not anticipate that defending Queer rights and the history of Pride will conflict with the needs of the rest of the Ward; to the contrary, that&#8217;s in all of our interests.</p>
<p>With reference to one of your specific concerns, I can assure you that I have not and will not take any positions that I deem important to my electoral success but bad for the Ward or the city. That is an admittedly tempting idea for some politicians, but it&#8217;s always a losing game in the long run. As voters we want genuine priorities and commitments, not pandering transactional politics.</p>
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		<title>By: ralph benmergui</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78516</link>
		<dc:creator>ralph benmergui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78516</guid>
		<description>In my years of covering and creating documentaries about middle east issues and particularly the painful realities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 
What I have come to believe is that their is no black and white just the highly complex web of both dysfunctional and functional relationships. Both sides hold truths and lies in equal measures. Inflamatory language and polarizing positions ignore the yearning for dignity and peace that the overwhelming majority of both populations want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my years of covering and creating documentaries about middle east issues and particularly the painful realities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.<br />
What I have come to believe is that their is no black and white just the highly complex web of both dysfunctional and functional relationships. Both sides hold truths and lies in equal measures. Inflamatory language and polarizing positions ignore the yearning for dignity and peace that the overwhelming majority of both populations want.</p>
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		<title>By: RO</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78512</link>
		<dc:creator>RO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78512</guid>
		<description>&quot;the councillor of Ward 27 must be a clear and unapologetic advocate for the LGBT community.&quot;

Huh?

Chris, a councillor must first be a clear and unapologetic advocate for the interests of all their constituents and not just one part of their constituency.

Will you be an unapologetic advocate for a position taken by any group that you deem important to your electoral success that also happens to be a bad position for your Ward or Toronto? 

How will you be an unapologetic advocate for one group&#039;s position if it clashes with your own views or those of another group within your ward?

The LGBT community has no exclusivity on political virtue. They, like any other group, have the capacity to be wrong.

A wanna be leader is a tad more nuanced, because otherwise one day he might find himself way out on a limb looking back at someone with a saw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the councillor of Ward 27 must be a clear and unapologetic advocate for the LGBT community.&#8221;</p>
<p>Huh?</p>
<p>Chris, a councillor must first be a clear and unapologetic advocate for the interests of all their constituents and not just one part of their constituency.</p>
<p>Will you be an unapologetic advocate for a position taken by any group that you deem important to your electoral success that also happens to be a bad position for your Ward or Toronto? </p>
<p>How will you be an unapologetic advocate for one group&#8217;s position if it clashes with your own views or those of another group within your ward?</p>
<p>The LGBT community has no exclusivity on political virtue. They, like any other group, have the capacity to be wrong.</p>
<p>A wanna be leader is a tad more nuanced, because otherwise one day he might find himself way out on a limb looking back at someone with a saw.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach Paikin</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78510</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach Paikin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78510</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to thank Chris for being so open minded on an issue as important as this.

For all of the posts above, I urge you all to do your homework. As someone who has traveled to Israel and the West Bank, I can assure you that there is no &quot;apartheid&quot; in Israel.

The most important thing is that one needs to differentiate between the 1.4 million Arab Israelis, and the Palestinian population governed by the PA.

Arab Israelis have fulls rights. They can vote, run for office (and have three parties currently in the Knesset), work for equal pay, have served in cabinet, on the Supreme Court and in diplomatic initiatives, etc. Yes, there are inequalities. There are inequalities in every democracy. And we&#039;re working on bettering them here in Canada too.

But democracy is the best thing we&#039;ve got. Don&#039;t forget that Arabs in Israel enjoy more rights than Arabs in any Arab state.

As for Palestinians, 97% of them are under PA sovereignty rule. Israel can&#039;t enforce &quot;apartheid&quot; against them, as they aren&#039;t in Israel proper. Plain and simple. Read the Oslo Accords.

Instead of pointing the finger and calling names (such as &quot;apartheid&quot;, &quot;genocide&quot;, &quot;occupation&quot;, and &quot;Nazi state&quot;, let&#039;s talk to each other. Let&#039;s sit down and see where each of us is coming from.

It&#039;s time to move forward. I hope you&#039;ll all join me in my quest for peace. Shalom-Salaam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to thank Chris for being so open minded on an issue as important as this.</p>
<p>For all of the posts above, I urge you all to do your homework. As someone who has traveled to Israel and the West Bank, I can assure you that there is no &#8220;apartheid&#8221; in Israel.</p>
<p>The most important thing is that one needs to differentiate between the 1.4 million Arab Israelis, and the Palestinian population governed by the PA.</p>
<p>Arab Israelis have fulls rights. They can vote, run for office (and have three parties currently in the Knesset), work for equal pay, have served in cabinet, on the Supreme Court and in diplomatic initiatives, etc. Yes, there are inequalities. There are inequalities in every democracy. And we&#8217;re working on bettering them here in Canada too.</p>
<p>But democracy is the best thing we&#8217;ve got. Don&#8217;t forget that Arabs in Israel enjoy more rights than Arabs in any Arab state.</p>
<p>As for Palestinians, 97% of them are under PA sovereignty rule. Israel can&#8217;t enforce &#8220;apartheid&#8221; against them, as they aren&#8217;t in Israel proper. Plain and simple. Read the Oslo Accords.</p>
<p>Instead of pointing the finger and calling names (such as &#8220;apartheid&#8221;, &#8220;genocide&#8221;, &#8220;occupation&#8221;, and &#8220;Nazi state&#8221;, let&#8217;s talk to each other. Let&#8217;s sit down and see where each of us is coming from.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s time to move forward. I hope you&#8217;ll all join me in my quest for peace. Shalom-Salaam.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78505</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78505</guid>
		<description>Every Toronto gay pride year, there&#039;s one lone man walking in the pride parade march with a sign protesting the gay rights movements.  I don&#039;t agree with his anti gay opinions, however I have found myself applauding for him as he marches by me out of respect for him standing up to what he believes is wrong.

Often, I find other pride parade viewers around me feeling the same way as I, and applauding for the lone guy as he marches for his right for freedom of expression.

As a openly gay male, without freedom of expression existing in Canada, I would not have the luxury of being open about my sexuality to begin with!

Chris, thank you for bringing this issue to light!  We all need to express our thoughts towards this to the Gay Pride executive board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every Toronto gay pride year, there&#8217;s one lone man walking in the pride parade march with a sign protesting the gay rights movements.  I don&#8217;t agree with his anti gay opinions, however I have found myself applauding for him as he marches by me out of respect for him standing up to what he believes is wrong.</p>
<p>Often, I find other pride parade viewers around me feeling the same way as I, and applauding for the lone guy as he marches for his right for freedom of expression.</p>
<p>As a openly gay male, without freedom of expression existing in Canada, I would not have the luxury of being open about my sexuality to begin with!</p>
<p>Chris, thank you for bringing this issue to light!  We all need to express our thoughts towards this to the Gay Pride executive board.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78504</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78504</guid>
		<description>Chris, I think you need to educate yourself on the issue of Israeli apartheid. You need more information and to consider a different perspective. I recommend the following two sources, for starters.

&quot;The Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa (HSRC) has released a study indicating that Israel is practicing both colonialism and apartheid in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). The study is being posted for public debate on this website.&quot;:
http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Media_Release-378.phtml

&quot;Coming out against Israeli apartheid: The case for solidarity&quot;:
http://www.rabble.ca/news/2010/03/coming-out-against-israeli-apartheid-case-solidarity</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I think you need to educate yourself on the issue of Israeli apartheid. You need more information and to consider a different perspective. I recommend the following two sources, for starters.</p>
<p>&#8220;The Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa (HSRC) has released a study indicating that Israel is practicing both colonialism and apartheid in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). The study is being posted for public debate on this website.&#8221;:<br />
<a href="http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Media_Release-378.phtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Media_Release-378.phtml</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Coming out against Israeli apartheid: The case for solidarity&#8221;:<br />
<a href="http://www.rabble.ca/news/2010/03/coming-out-against-israeli-apartheid-case-solidarity" rel="nofollow">http://www.rabble.ca/news/2010/03/coming-out-against-israeli-apartheid-case-solidarity</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Tindal</title>
		<link>http://www.christindal.ca/2010/03/18/celebrating-differences-finding-common-ground/comment-page-1/#comment-78499</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Tindal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.christindal.ca/?p=1181#comment-78499</guid>
		<description>@Alex...

&quot;I hope I donâ€™t need to point out that criticizing a government does not mean you are criticizing the people who live there, and it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.&quot;

I agree, and have said so on this blog before. This is an important distinction that needs to be emphasized.

&quot;â€œObjectionableâ€ messages â€“ even on â€œsensitiveâ€ subjects, are part of the tradition of Pride.&quot;

Absolutely, and that should continue, as I said above. That is the main point of my post.

&quot;This is not an issue of the Jewish community versus the queer community. If you have been following Xtra, you know that many of the people involved in Queers Against Israeli Apartheid are Jewish themselves.&quot;

I am following Xtra&#039;s coverage closely. Neither community is homogeneous, but we can&#039;t pretend there isn&#039;t a conflict between some members of each community, who seem to be at an impasse. By pointing out common objectives, we can begin to dislodge that impasse.

&quot;I recommend that you talk to the people involved to more fully understand their point of view before you wade into the issue.&quot;

I&#039;ve talked to many who feel passionately about this issue one way or the other, including before publishing this post. I received strong messages of support from members of both the Queer and Jewish communities, but again, there will always be different opinions within any community. The comments being left by you and others on this blog continue to help illuminate different perspectives and contribute to ongoing better understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alex&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;I hope I donâ€™t need to point out that criticizing a government does not mean you are criticizing the people who live there, and it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree, and have said so on this blog before. This is an important distinction that needs to be emphasized.</p>
<p>&#8220;â€œObjectionableâ€ messages â€“ even on â€œsensitiveâ€ subjects, are part of the tradition of Pride.&#8221;</p>
<p>Absolutely, and that should continue, as I said above. That is the main point of my post.</p>
<p>&#8220;This is not an issue of the Jewish community versus the queer community. If you have been following Xtra, you know that many of the people involved in Queers Against Israeli Apartheid are Jewish themselves.&#8221;</p>
<p>I am following Xtra&#8217;s coverage closely. Neither community is homogeneous, but we can&#8217;t pretend there isn&#8217;t a conflict between some members of each community, who seem to be at an impasse. By pointing out common objectives, we can begin to dislodge that impasse.</p>
<p>&#8220;I recommend that you talk to the people involved to more fully understand their point of view before you wade into the issue.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve talked to many who feel passionately about this issue one way or the other, including before publishing this post. I received strong messages of support from members of both the Queer and Jewish communities, but again, there will always be different opinions within any community. The comments being left by you and others on this blog continue to help illuminate different perspectives and contribute to ongoing better understanding.</p>
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